Travis says that Joel Osteen’s ever-popular message makes him an enemy of the Gospel of Christ.
I agree.
What do you think?
Joel Osteen: An Enemy of the Gospel?
January 14th, 2006 | The Church, Theology
not another blog, v2.0
January 14th, 2006 | The Church, Theology
Travis says that Joel Osteen’s ever-popular message makes him an enemy of the Gospel of Christ.
I agree.
What do you think?
73 comments ↓
Oh, I definetely agree.
I also think of what could be done with all that damn money he spent on his building down there.
I agree as well. I’ve actually got a housemate, and he attends Osteen’s church, and it concerns me, because as I watch him preach, he is not accurate on the Word.
Did I say that?
Oh, wrong Travis.
I think that the “your best life now” approach is anti-Christ…but let’s make sure we don’t have eyes full of iPods, Starbucks Coffee and other trappings of “the good life” before we go razing the Compaq Center.
*looks at desk*
*sees iPod*
*sees thermos of Starbucks coffee*
*slowly looks away*
Didn’t mean to be to harsh there, but I think we all need constant reminders…
Dan Edelen got me with his post on Bruce Wilkinson coming back to the U.S. with his tail tucked between his legs:
“First, although I’m a firm opponent of the Evangelicalized version of the Pentecostal “Name It and Claim It” theology that The Prayer of Jabez espouses, I must ask this of Mr. Wilkinson’s critics: What have you done for orphans in Swaziland? How simple it is to point fingers in the aftermath of Dream for Africa’s failure and say, “I told you so.” How hypocritical to judge someone else’s failure when we ourselves have done little or nothing. Frankly, I find this piling on by supposed Christian people who want to get their licks in on Bruce Wilkinson to be despicable and anti-Christ. There–I said it.”
Yes, we need to call apostasy like it is, but we aren’t justified when we get mad that others are espousing what we’re doing.
(Still, the iPod and Starbucks comment was a bit of a cheap shot. I may not have ‘em at my desk, but there are many days I want to.)
Travis, I’m not following your point. Are you suggesting that a Christian must reach some level of sanctification before making judgments concerning the orthodoxy of a leader’s teachings?
Or that Ipods, coffee, etc betray some kind of idolatry or western wealth that disqualifies us from drawing attention to heretical teachings?
Help me understand your point.
I’m saying if we want to start calling a man a heretic for preaching a “health, wealth and prosperity” doctrine (which he would be), we need to first check ourselves to see if we’re pursuing a form of the “health, wealth and prosperity” doctrine in our own lives.
“Or that Ipods, coffee, etc betray some kind of idolatry or western wealth that disqualifies us from drawing attention to heretical teachings?”
I wouldn’t go this far, but this is in the neighborhood of my point.
I’m just asking for self-examination to happen before examining others. Are our lives showing that the “prosperity gospel” is false, or do we give it tacit approval by how we buy, sell and consume?
Yeah, I guess I get your point. I guess its a matter of emphasis and what emphasis the times call for. In my opinion I guess I don’t see the evangelical church erring on the side of denouncing heretical, anti-biblical views too frequently and harshly (especially when such views are espoused within evangelical circles). Rather I see the evangelical community buying into the “hey lets not be judgmental- live and let live- if God is using it then who are we to criticise” pattern of thought. We ought to stand with Paul and say, “anathema”. So as a pastor, my passion for the gospel is expressed in equipping people to see counterfeit gosepls whenever and wherever they present themselves. I want my congregation to listen to Olsteen and be able to say “Hey. That’s not the gospel. That’s heresy”, (IF in fact that is the case), even if as twenty first century americans they are still wrestling with the way the gospel speaks to our materialistic tendancies. In fact, until we can hold to the gospel with a proper confidence necessary to declare false gospels anathema, I question if we’ve been gripped by it enough to see materialism and other vices put to death.
Peace.
I love Joel’s book it has changed my life and made me pursue the real me and shed the ole. Failure is an event never a person.
Bob: With respect, the writings of none of our brothers and sisters—as right or as wrong as any of them may be—should ever move us to such actions. If we’re moved to action, it should be an exposition of Truth that causes us to faithfully and purely self-examine and be ever more reliant on the saving power of Jesus Christ, the love of the Father, and the encouragement of the Holy Spirit. Anything else is the deification of any of our favorite writers, whether it be Osteen for you, John Piper for my brother Rae, or John Wesley for my own self.
Wow…I do not know Joel or his ministry other then a few things in the paper. I would like to know how you found out that he is opposed to abortions, sin, Jesus as our Savior, and hardship. I did not see any quotes from him even suggesting those ideas. Could you please help me hate him too?
Hey I found this article about him…I think you guys might be onto somthing (note mocking tone)
http://www.wxyz.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_3929405,00.html
Well, it’s not that anyone’s hating anyone, Luke . . . but it’s troubling that one of the most recognizable pastors in the world right now teaches what largely amounts to a “gospel” of self-esteem and happiness. Not that there’s anything wrong with self-esteem or happiness, of course, but those things become the message, rather than Christ’s atoning sacrifice for our sin, there’s a HUGE danger.
You might want to check out this link for some more detailed insight into what Joel’s teaching (or not teaching). Here’s a quote from that article that kind of highlights the problems…
From your comment Rae it seems that the biggest problem with him is that he is “simple” and “shallow”…In fact the article that I read did not say that he pointed anyone to anything else other then Jesus. Here is a quote what do you think about this statement?
“What I want to preach about in San Francisco is the love of God. People need to know that God loves them no matter what their sexual orientation. I have so many gay friends, and we remain friends.”
The problem that many folks have with Osteen’s preaching is that he seems to elevate personal happiness above a pentinent heart and a right attitude with Christ that leans fully upon Him for salvation, justification, and sanctification.
Besides, Christ didn’t promise riches and greatness and happiness to his immediate disciples—he promised ruin, persecution, and hatred.
Regarding your quote: Sure, God loves penitent homosexuals just as much as He loves me, a forgiven sinner who struggles with issues of lust. God hates their sin just as much as He hates mine. That doesn’t mean that we should continue to strive to live in sin as if it’s no big deal, because it’s a very, very big deal—if it weren’t, God wouldn’t have busted out with the “nuclear option” of sending Jesus into the world.
[My word. I just alluded to the Alito nomination and compared it to Christ's work on Calvary. I should repent of that.]
well…I don’t think God just love “penitent homosexuals”…I think he loves acting, God-hating, Hate Alito, Homosexuals. I mean isn’t that the great think about Christ, that he loved us first before we loved him?
And I think Jesus does promise us “blessing” for following him. In fact Paul did in fact have riches, and he was great (he wrote most of the new testament) and he was happy- but he also faced ruin, and he was persecuted, and he was hated…So can’t you have both? I mean why must we only preach a “happy gospel” or why must we only preach a “hardship” gospel? And why must we think someone who only preaches one side becomes an “enemy” of the gospel? If that was the case then maybe you are an enemy of the gospel by not preaching the “happy” parts. Or for that matter maybe I am too!
Geof pretty much hit the nail on the head, there. The problem isn’t really that Osteen’s message is simple . . . when you get down to it, the Gospel is simple . . . “God has a standard. You don’t meet it because you’re a sinner. Jesus died and rose again to save sinners. Follow him and be saved.” Simple stuff! The problem creeps in when the message shifts from how Christ’s sacrifice should affect our lives to how we should just have a good attitude about everything (and name-dropping “Jesus” or “God” every so often). I don’t think that anyone’s saying that a “hardship Gospel” is what needs to be preached, and I’m not saying that he’s preaching “one side” of the Gospel . . . it’s that he’s not preaching the Gospel. A message of affirmation and encouragement devoid of the cross just takes people from death to even more death.
(Check out this post in addition to the one I linked in my earlier response to get a fuller view of what I mean.)
Regarding that quote you posted, Luke (that was Billy Graham, right?) . . . it’s great, and more Christians should look to that as a model. The question then becomes, though, what is this “love of God” that we’re to preach to unrepenant sinners — be they homosexuals, liars, thieves, greedy people, or whatever? If it’s anything other than His love for them expressed in Christ’s death on the cross, and the fact that he calls sinners to repent and be saved, then of what value is it? To quote one of my least favorite authors (who I think is absolutely right in this case), Max Lucado, “God loves you the way you are, but he loves you too much for you to stay that way.”
Trust me, Luke, I don’t think you’re of this same ilk at all. I’ve heard you preach and you preach the Gospel. Take a listen to some of his sermons or read a transcript of his Larry King ingterview or a chapter or two from his book. It becomes astonishingly clear that the Gospel of Christ has taken a back seat (if it’s even in the same car) to his “gospel” of self-determination.
Well, it’s pretty clear to me that God hates sin and can’t look at us if we’re not penitent and covered by Grace.
Thanks for the rejoinder, Rae. You filled in my gaps.
I took a crack at Osteen’s congregational confession. It’s right along the lines that you guys are talking about.
Osteen is a fad. Dangerous, but a fad.
To be fair, John Osteen (Joel’s dad and the previous pastor of the church) came up with that, not Joel, and had been using it for years and years previous. Chalk that one up to tradition, perhaps.
Luke, I do agree that the Gospel is neither a “prosperity” Gospel, nor a “poverty” Gospel. It’s not either/or.
At the same time, being in the state of one or the other (utter destitution or massive wealth) has little to no bearing on your spiritual maturity. And that is part of Osteen’s problem. It’s a slightly less overt version of the “if you’re really spiritual, you should really be experiencing more blessing and happiness, and the only thing holding you back is the lack of your belief in yourself.”
Someone I respect once said (paraphrasing), “Any part of someone’s “Gospel” that is not equally true in the poorest parts of Africa and Asia and the richest parts of the US and Western Europe must not really be a part of the Gospel.”
This cuts the other way, as there is a real problem in certain circles with greater degrees of poverty being seen as measures of spirituality, such that some would call being wealthy indicative of spiritual weakness.
If someone is obedient to God and trusts Him in faith to provide, then He will–that is true no matter where one lives, no matter what the social context.
It’s inherently racist, imperialist, prejudiced, and ignorant to assume that God does not prosper Africans as He does Americans (or any other people group). People who make such claims have never traveled to Africa or other countries where there are Christians prospering.
You write “being in the state of one or the other (utter destitution or massive wealth) has little to no bearing on your spiritual maturity” and that’s precisely where you’re wrong. Someone can be poor and be a Christian, and someone can be wealthy and be a Christian; however, living in abject poverty and not having one’s needs met is neither God’s best nor His plan for His people. And not knowing and experiencing God’s best is a sign of spiritual immaturity, a sign that someone has not accepted what God has to say about a particular topic or a sign that someone has been improperly instructed. Not knowing and experiencing God’s best as a result of not having attained fullness in Him is sign that someone is still a “babe” in Christ.
Stuart, could you provide some scripture to undergird this claim . . .
By “God’s best”, I assume you mean material wealth. That doesn’t seem to jive with God’s promise to provide for “every need of (ours) according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.” I believe that God does indeed give his children his best, but that doesn’t necessarily include material wealth, and I don’t think it’d biblically defensible to say so. Additionally, his promise to supply our needs is dependent on nothing in us . . . our “having attained fullness in Him” (whatever that means) is inconsequential as far as God’s provision goes. His glorious riches are in Christ Jesus, not in us.
WOW-I think this debate is finally getting us somewhere. It seems that the real question is “How does God show us His blessing here on earth-Now!”
Is it through material things (Think of the story of Job -the Lord “rewarded” his faithfulness with even more blessings then he had before) Or is it though spiritual means (Think of the early Christians who sold their positions to help other poor Christians)
What one of these do ya’ll think is the right one? (Please at least refer to scripture when you answer)
In response to Geof F. Morris comments
“Well, it’s pretty clear to me that God hates sin and can’t look at us if we’re not penitent and covered by Grace.
If God does not see us until we repent and we must have his grace How do we get his grace to repent unless He sees us in our sinful state?
Hello everyone, I’m new to this conversation.
I figured I’d add my two cents.
Basically I agree with the way the conversation is going, the real question is how does God bless people? Finacially, the Bible does say that God will provide all of our needs, but that doens’t mean that he’ll provide all of our wants. Which i’m sure everyone agrees with.
People who preach that God wants you rich are misguided, in that, God may infact provide you with prosperity, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that its for you. Does God want you rich so that you can kick back infront of the pool and drinking a latte out back of your big mansion while there are people in your own city who have to choose between buying diapers for thier babies and eating? Defiantly not.
But does that mean that its wrong for people, like someone said above, to have Ipods and drink starbucks?, I dont think so, as long as we are willing to give those things up if the need came up. If we make idols out of our stuff, then its wrong.
Read it carefully:
Mark 10:29-30:
29″I tell you the truth,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life.
People love talking about the rich young ruler but they hardly ever quote verses 29-30.
God’s best includes God’s plan for EVERY AREA of our lives–that is what I was pointing out. However, I do believe that God’s best includes His people having their needs and desires met, so long as they are in accordance with His Word.
As far as “fullness” goes, just look it up. I was referring to the need for us to reach maturity in Him, maturity in the Word, in terms of both our understanding and our walk with the Lord.
And, as far as material blessing, I believe its Biblical purpose is to be generous with others, to put God and the work of the Kingdom first.
2 Cor 9:10-15
10Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
12This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!
I believe our purpose in being blessed is to be GENEROUS. To me, that is what being blessed is all about. The more blessed I am, the more I can give away. And that is a principle/ethic that I embody in my life.
Every year God increases my store of seed, and as a result, I can be more generous with others in EVERY AREA–with my time, my energies, and also with the MONEY God has made me a steward of.
What we need is balance.
God wants to bless His people but He wants to bless His people for a reason.
That’s a good soteriology question. I’m Methodist, and I definitely go along with the Wesleyan answer to that question. As that is not germane to this discussion nor to Rae’s Weblog in general, I’ll let you do your own digging on that one.
Working backwards, here . . .
Stuart - Thank you for your prompt and scripture-filled response. I still disagree with some points of your premise, but I definitely better understand where you’re coming from. I agree that God gives us gifts at least partly in order to give to others . . . there’s no question about that. I just have a problem with the implication that it can be assumed that if a follower of Christ lives in poverty for a season, then he or she must not be growing in Christ. The blessings the Lord gives his children aren’t necessarily material or monetary, and they don’t have to be.
Luke - I don’t think it’s an either/or question, really, because there are scriptural examples of God blessing his people with both material riches and spiritual riches. I would say that material blessings (as far as owning things) are not explicitly or even implicitly promised in Scripture. Some may cite Mark 10, as Stuart did above, but that seems to speak more to our “gaining” those things (homes, brothers, sisters, etc) through our relationships with fellow believers. For instance, when I visit Birmingham, I know that I’ve got a place to stay (a home) because I have so many Christian brothers and sisters who are willing to make their resources available to me in my need. The problem I have with Osteen and other Name-It-And-Claim-It preachers is that they often say that we are indeed promised material riches in Scripture, as long as we’re in the “favor of God”, and if we’re not experiencing that, then we must be doing something wrong.
Stumbled onto this blog and scanned down through the replies to the original post. I just wanted to point out that I am impressed by the comportment of everyone here. Not only is it refreshing to find a civil discussion, but one where the people involved are actually answering questions asked (instead of talking in circles) and answering them intelligently.
As an aside, Rae, you have a lovely family (looked at your pics).
Shawn: I agree. I blame/commend Rae for that. [Sadly, if this weblog were more popular, it might not be so civil here in comment-land. Consider that, Rae, next time you're feeling glum about your hit count. ;)]
I agree Rae that “name it and claim it preachers” are missing the real blessing of Jesus. But from what I have read about Joel I do not see him in that group. And I do love your website.
Our ministry just delivered a workshop entitled “Behind The Smile: A Look Behind Joel Osteen’s ‘Your Best Life Now’” which we taped. A Real Audio presentation of the talk is now on our website. Tapes of it may be purchased from the Evangelical Ministries To New Religion coalition whose annual conference is where we delivered this at.
http://www.spiritwatch.org/behindsmile.ram
we welcome your visit and hope the presentation is a worthy response to Joel’s misguided ministry.
Dangerous Steps Towards Deification
My brother and friend Raekwon wrote on the possibility that Joel Osteen is an “enemy of the Gospel” [his words, not mine; I do find that Osteen is going about many good things in a very, very bad way], and one of Osteen’s fans respond…
I am very interested in the discussion going on here. I am what you would call “researching religion” as I was raised in a particular church but later lost touch with my relationship with God when i was a teen, as I’m told is the case with many people. I’m happy to say that now I’ve realized just how important God is to me and I would like to learn more about how to strengthen that realationship and make God number one in my life, however, I am overwhelmed with the different religious groups. I was recently brought to one of Joel’s services and it was very uplifting, however, I am never one to simply “swallow” anything without doing research. Your comments have been extremely helpful. It helps to see things from different perspectives and from those who directly quote from the bible because though it may seem confusing to some, others have insight and can help others to understand (such as myself). I will continue my search and continue to read your comments. I agree with Stuart because I feel that God would want us to have both the understanding that we are sinners and must adhere to his teachings and what is required from us in order to be saved, but also be able to be happy and enjoy his blessings. I’m just curious as to why preachers can’t do both. I’ll be honest with you, I think the real reason many young people start to stray from the church is because there’s so much “doom and gloom” and not enough encouragement and examples of not only how to live your life the way Jesus wants you to, but also the joys and rewards for those that do. Now I’m not saying that the “rewards” of being a good follower of Jesus Christ have to necessarily be monetary, not at all, but the rewards of feeling loved by Jesus and feeling confident in your abilities to get through tough times with the help of Jesus are priceless. With him all things are possible right? So why shouldn’t we believe that God wants us to be happy? As for self-determination, doesn’t God say, I’ll help you if you help yourself? (not sure what verse this is)
Disclaimer: I don’t mean to offend anyone with my questions, and I’m far from an expert in this subject as I’m neither a minister or preacher, but I am definitely interested in learning more and I think this would definitely be a good venue as you all seem so knowledgeable in the subject.
Any advice you can offer would be appreciated.
Thanks
I’ve missed out on some of this conversation, but I’m back.
God does promise to provide for our needs. Matthew 6 deals with some of this. Rich Mullins mentions this in a well-crafted line, “so we can dress like flowers and eat like birds.” The larger then question is what do we truly need?
John Piper wrote a book called “Don’t Waste Your Life” and he makes a good point by saying (and I’m paraphrasing) “God never promised you that you’ll be making a lot of money as a Christian. He doesn’t promise you enough food for the rest of your life. He doesn’t promise you enough food for today. What He does promise you is enough so that you can trust Him for everything.”
That’s not to say that food, clothes, shelter, etc. aren’t important. As a health professional, I promise you that those things are integral to basic human survival and thriving. However, none of these things are guaranteed in ways that Osteen and others of the “prosperity gospel” persuasion explicitly or implicitly state.
We could draw this to include health states, and Scripture does give us the example of the man born blind. It wasn’t his or his parents’ sin that he was born in an handicapped state, but it was for God’s purposes. I think the same can be said for any given Christian’s financial state. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with being rich or poor (and even these terms of relative to the society you’re living in). I’ve seen rich and poor Christians in the US, China, India, and Mexico. As far as I can tell, there is zero correlation between maturity, amount of faith, etc. and socioeconomic standing in that community.
God’s promises of provision and blessing are probably best summed up as that which we need to grow and develop in our faith and love. For some, at different stages in life, that may be riches, and at other times and for others, that may be being pretty poor. Neither is a guaranteed state, and neither is guaranteed to continue necessarily.
Curious,
Thanks for joining the conversation! I think that Phil there answered your concerns pretty well (though you’re certainly welcome to keep the conversation going). Just one thing I’d add . . .
The whole “God helps those who helps themselves” thing is a pretty common misconception. It’s not in the Bible, and in fact, that sort of sentiment is pretty antithetical to the Gospel message. In sending Jesus, God said “I’m helping you because you can’t do anything to help yourselves”. Not that we shouldn’t act responsibly and use the talents and determination that God gives, of course.
MOST CHRISTIANS ARE JUST PLAIN JEALOUS OF JOEL OSTEEN.
AS FOR ME, I BECAME A BORN-AGAIN CHRISTIAN BECAUSE OF HIS MESSAGES AND READING HIS BOOKS.
THAT’S ALL I HAVE TO SAY.
Very enlightening, Ric. I praise God that he saw fit to grant you repentance, regardless of the messenger. I suppose if God could use a talking ass in the OT days to accomplish his work, he can do the same now.
Do you care to interact with any of the previous comments regarding the content of Osteen’s message?
Very enlightening, Ric. I praise God that he saw fit to grant you repentance, regardless of the messenger. I suppose if God could use a talking ass in the OT days to accomplish his work, he can do the same now.
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am curious as to what these evangelicals on t.v. hence- J. Olsteen, J. Meyers
have done to help people in third world countries? I see them doing more preaching but not enough community charitable work. Don’t they know how to get dirty i.e. manual labor in building schools or clinic in Algeria, Vietnam etc.???? J. Olsteen, does not believe in having a crucifix in his church nor has he been baptized nor has he been in seminary or theology school. This new book deal has already sold 3 million copies. Joyce Meyers owns her own private jet, two million dollar homes, several cars….What about the homeless people in their hometown?? Or children and spouse abuse?? WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING- AND HOW COME NEITHER OF THEM ARE PHYSICALLY DOING ANY TYPE OF COMMUNITY SERVICE??????????
I have to follow with Ric. ANYONE that can motivate people to believe in themselves, to improve their lives and to live fully should be praised. Sorry everyone if this doesn’t follow ‘cookie cutter religion.’ However if they make the money and motivate with sincerity, so be it. Yes, people are starving all over the world. And we need to help. But sorry, but that does NOT mean that people who have built a business in self improvement or any other career have to go without. They’ve worked hard.
Possibly Osteen isn’t ordained. But you have to realize too………. that he never claimed to be. Dah………
Enough said. He’s helping alot more people than any other person on earth to improve lives……………. sometimes it’s what it takes.. to improve what we have before we can help others.
Sorry if I crushed religious egos. So many are finally realizing that it isn’t about how you practice your belief.. .. but That YOU do BELIEVE.
I’m sorry, Debra. I missed where Jesus was a self-help guru. Too bad Oprah wasn’t on in His day; He would have been President!
I think Joel’s great. I believe he’s not just talkin’ the talk but walkin’ in it. If you follow his suggestions you’ll live a more victorious life, and when the times comes maybe get raptured outta here… Praise the Lord!
We should believe the whole Bible. He is the changeless one and his Word never changes either.
If the desires of your heart line up with the Word of God… Name it and Claim it, Blab it and Grab it….Speak to your Mountains!
So, Bob . . . what does it mean when “your mountain” doesn’t budge, even after you’ve spoken, pleaded, yelled, and screamed at it for years?
I’ve had experiences growing up in a church and observing churches were the Word is spoken but is never applied to the day to day life of Christians. Joel Osteen has his place in the field of Gospel. By showing and pointing out the great things about living in the Word and by the Word of God, he helps spread the Word of God, and the message of Love. I think the only way a danger would exist for people who just listen to a message of self esteem and whatever else would only be valid if was not a staple of our faith and people of faith and Christians read and know the Word of God. This is necessary and anyone seriously wanting God to guide their lives would start with this. And why is there so much animosity when referring to his teaching practice? Although some criticism are correct, calling a preacher or his methods Anti-Christian is extreme.
I’ve had experiences growing up in a church and observing churches were the Word is spoken but is never applied to the day to day life of Christians. Joel Osteen has his place in the field of Gospel. By showing and pointing out the great things about living in the Word and by the Word of God, he helps spread the Word of God, and the message of Love. I think the only way a danger would exist for people who just listen to a message of self esteem and whatever else would only be valid if was not a staple of our faith and people of faith and Christians read and know the Word of God.
Joel Osteen has his place in the field of Gospel. By showing and pointing out the great things about living in the Word and by the Word of God, he helps spread the Word of God, and the message of Love. I think the only way a danger would exist for people who just listen to a message of self esteem and whatever else would only be valid if was not a staple of our faith and people of faith and Christians read and know the Word of God.
Joel Osteen has his place in the field of Gospel. By showing and pointing out the great things about living in the Word and by the Word of God, he helps spread the Word of God, and the message of Love.
I think the only way a danger would exist for people who just listen to a message of self esteem and whatever else would only be valid if was not a staple of our faith and people of faith and Christians read and know the Word of God.
I was just wondering. What do the Osteen supporters think is the connection, if any, between right beliefs and right actions? Can one exist without the other? Can we please God with just one and not the other? Is one more important than the other?
Allow me to share a strong point of WISDOM for those who’s fingers are quick to point, and hearts eager to judge;
1. No man is ‘perfect’. -Yeah, I know is a simple statement, yet many people who think they are Christians are making HUGE judgements with little knowledge, often tidbits whispered by satan in an effort to divide and conquer God’s kingdom.
2. With that said, allow me share what seems to always go un-noticed by those who criticize; I personally have been TRULY TRANSFORMED by the teachings of Joel Osteen. I once lived by way of negative thoughts, and limited vision. The teachings of Joel Osteen broke these chains to where I now live a life of faith, boldness, and victory, giving GOD all the glory. And because of that breakthrough, I now operate in a ministry for China where before I didn’t think I was capable of ministering. -Do you have any idea how many other people like me are out there, bound by chains of negative beliefs, and limited faith in God?
I don’t think there is a single pastor, preacher or evengelist alive who doesn’t get some sort of flack because he’s not speaking exactly the way someone wants to hear. But that DOES NOT mean that other people are being blessed, delivered or healed by the message. If you’re not getting ‘goosebumps’ or filled by the message delivered from one of God’s servants, then perhaps the message isn’t for you, but it is for someone else, whom you have no right to deny, reject or condemn the message God is speaking through His servant.
God offers us discernment. Pray and use it dilligently because there are a lot of ‘voices’ in the church trying to rob God’s people of His blessings.
Amen to that
I find it really interesting that somehow this post has suddenly picked up in popularity over the last couple of months almost two years after it was originally posted. Where’d you folks find the link?
So, in response to this sudden influx of pro-Joel comments, I have this to say . . . most of you folks seem to be fans of this man because of the supposed “results” that his preaching has brought into your lives or in the lives of others.
1) Is that a fair statement?
2) If so, are said results more important than whether or not what he says is true or faithful to the Gospel of Christ? (note: “Results” don’t confirm truth.)
Rae,
I actually responded to your question dated November 22nd but i did it wrong and i see it didn’t post. So i’ll go ahead and post it now.
November 22nd
Tough question… Make sure your mountain lines up with God’s promises, live a righteous life, ask for forgiveness when you fail, have faith without wavering, forgive anyone who has wronged you,and don’t stop screaming at your mountain.
By the way I’m only righteous by the blood of Jesus and have to ask for forgiveness quite often, however I believe He has moved some mountains for me.
You may have already studied prayer. If not there are methods to help your prayers be more successful. Germaine Copeland has written some very informative books on prayer. http://www.prayers.org
Bob
Hey Rae,
I may have the answer to your question… I was watching Joel back before Thanksiving and he made a humorous comment about some of the blogs about him. So when i went online later i did a google search for Joel Osteen Blogs and there you were.
Bob
That makes my day, Bob.
I may need to do a new post about this on my new blog.
and i already belonged to a church that believes simularly to Joel before i saw his first show. I’ve yet to hear anything he’s said that can’t be backed up with some scripture. Although he said some things he later regretted on that first Larry King Interview.
Bob
Rae,
Have a good Day. Lunch is over gotta get back to work.
Bob
I think some of my problems with Osteen aren’t so much what he DOES say, but more of what he doesn’t say. Many of the concepts and ideas that he preaches aren’t overtly out of line with orthodoxy, but when taken out of the context of the whole counsel of God, is just a hair’s breadth away from full-blown heresy.
I actually get a see a fairly large amount of his stuff because of where and when I work, and I have to say that I hear a lot of the same stuff, about positive thinking, good financial and material results, and how bad negative thoughts are, and little to nothing about sin, salvation, redemption, Christ, sacrifice, moving out of a comfort zone, etc.
That said, I am not advocating a down in the dumps Christianity, but one that moves beyond measuring success in terms of material results, mostly because that has certain implications for many faithful believers in other countries and settings without material wealth that is simply antiscriptural, and therefore heretical.
material blessing/success never has been a valid measure of one’s faith or maturity, and it should never be one. Therefore, we shouldn’t let that be a central part of message about our faith in Christ.
As a good friend of mine once said to me, God never called us to be successful - He called us to be faithful. The key is to make our ideas of “success” match His ideas - and material and financial blessing are not it.
Hahahahahahahahaha!
O’Steen fans are a bit slow to the draw, no?
being successful is relative, however he wants us to succeed and be blessed.
3 john 1 tells us that:
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
the amplified translation is even better
Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in every way and [that your body] may keep well, even as [I know] your soul keeps well and prospers.
good night
Bob, I don’t think anyone’s denying the fact that John prayed that everything was going well with Gaius. That verse isnt saying that God wants to rain down riches and rainbows on our heads. Its simply John praying that he hopes things are going well with Gaius. The problem is that is the mindset that you get with Joel’s teaching, that God becomes a tool to justify a means. I do this and God gives me a camel and a racecar. We certainly know what scripture says about camels and rich people, yes? Scripture attributes righteous living more with suffering than anything else.(1 Peter 2:20, 2 Timothy 2:3, Romans 5:3, Romans 8:17) What gets lost, or actually never appears, in Joel’s teaching is that being a Christian is many times a perilous thing, not a means to acquire an extravagant life.
Romans 8:17 seems to do away with any notion that God’s main goal is to make us happy.
“and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.”
provided we suffer…..its kinda hard for you to get around that. its not a question of if you suffer. its a question of if you DON’T suffer with Christ you will NOT be glorified with Christ.
how’s that for a hard truth, God WANTS you to suffer
to follow up on the previous posts- I wrote a paper concerning Paul’s theology of suffering. Paul and Joel Osteen are quite at odds:
http://jephpapers.blogspot.com/2007/11/pauls-theology-of-suffering.html
macgyver you’re right. However i know what the will of a father is for his children. I would want 3 john 2 for my children as long as they could handle it. There’s been times when i could have gotten in a lot of trouble if i’d had too much money. Jesus prayed “Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven” and there is no lack in Heaven. Hey folks be Blessed. according to your faith be it done onto you.
“However i know what the will of a father is for his children.” So you’re saying that God’s will for every Christian is to be materially wealthy? Beyond that, you’re saying that a Christian’s level maturity determines how wealthy he/she is?
Hey folks what do you say we continue this argument over coffee after we’ve had dinner with the Lord. We can laugh with each other over who was right and who was wrong. I’ve got Christmas shopping to do.
Sounds like an Osteen response. I sure am glad the Reformers didn’t adopt such an attitude
If we had stuck with the Book of Acts we wouldn’t have needed the reformers. That was church! Now that’s an Osteen response…. John Osteen.
Hey what do you think about praying in tongues?
Snakes? We only do that on the 3rd wed of each month. I kidding.
I guess we’ve run everybody off macgyver. LOL Maybe they’re on vacation.
Have a great Christmas
Once again, Joel Osteen’s utter failure to uphold Christian truth in an age of apostacy only further supports what is all too clear about his teaching: it is spiritually bankrupt.
Here is a link to articles our ministry has created on Osteen’s heretical compromise that is anointed as “Christianity” today.
http://www.spiritwatch.org/behindsmile.htm
Macgyver asks some very good questions that you dodge, Bob. They’re actually quite easy to answer based on orthodoxy. Not so easy if all you have is Joel Osteen’s blatherings.
I’ve pretty much given up on my questions ever being answered.
Rae, you asked where people found the link to this. I am doing some background reading, preparing a sermon on loving your enemies. This came up top on the google search.
For the record…I would have trouble with the idea of wealth as an index of spiritual maturity. I would have thought that Job would give us enough illustration that spiritual matters can be much more complex than what we see on the surface of life!
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